Curse

horseradish · Nov 24, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Though i am not an "uber-l33t zomg rolls-head-on-keyboard sin"....perhaps i can offer a more objective view, having killed and been killed by assassins.

-I don't see assassins as frontline characters. In terms of PvE, an assassin shouldn't be in the frontline all of the time, and in terms of PvP, assassins stay in the back until a good moment to strike....or split with a monk and another 'sin. Eh, maybe my definition of Frontline is a bit foggy.

-Assassins should have more DPS than a warrior to make up for the (much lower) AL.

-From what i've observed, the assassin has two choices: O-D-O-D a bunch of times in a short amount of time....or L-O-D and wait for recharge. Which would you choose? The latter doesn't sound as effective...or fun. This is a game afterall.

-the recharges for some defensive and offensive skills should be lowered imo.

-The assassin was meant to be based around L-O-D, so O-D-O-D skill chaining should be eliminated. It's not an "honorable" way to play. Unfortunately, no one has a universal, end all, everybody's happy change that will fix that.

-Deadly Arts should be made more viable outside of the AoD smiting assassin. I dislike that build not because i've been killed by it, but because it is a bunch of attacks with little survivability. Perhaps changing some skills in DA to produce more variety of utility effects. IAS plz?

-Shadow Arts is used as the assassin's line of defense, and i've yet to see an assassin not use Shadow Refuge, Recall, Dark Escape, or what have you. Because of this, the assassin doesn't have enough points to put in DA, which i am sad to see.

-Some attack skills need a buff...or functionality change. Some seem too conditional, and others seem too mediocre.

-'Sins need more utility. I would like to see more, non-elite, interrupting skills besides Disrupting Dagger. It would also be interesting to see an assassin with shurikens, casting spells & attacks at half spell range or something...but i digress. The assassin is not a ninja. >__>

-These are just my observations and opinions. Correct me if you find me at fault, but don't be rude. It is late here, and i am a bit disoriented from things unrelated to sleep.

Shuuda · Nov 24, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Very good ideas, I love the concept. However, the knock down on falling spider should have to scale with dagger mastery (3 seconds at 14 mastery) Because if it can be used outside the dagger chain, a 3 sec KD could be abused by warriors. And if your changes were to happen, the Ox skills should be changed back to pre nerf, since there will be no more O-D-O-D combos.

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigrs84

i realize that, but my point still stands. 70 AL on a nonranged pressure class is ftl. if you improved some of the shadow stepping skills and made them have short recharges perhaps. maybe increase shadow stepping range slightly so you aren't still getting hit by spells when you step back out.

Who knows, I personally think the survivability issue should be dealt with after the fixing of Assassin's function.

Quote:

here's my own idea of how you might change the sin class to play a little differently, although i haven't thought it through very much at all and might be possible to abuse certain skills with this idea.

make lead, offhand, and dual attacks not fail if requirements are not met, but reduce damage and conditions/health gain/energy gain/kd time by 50%, and dual attacks only attack once not twice ifrequirements are not met. once a requirement is not met, it affects the rest of the chain, so you can't go offhand dual and get full benefit of the dual.

Apart from that being hard to implement, I think Dual Attacks as they are hard hitting should only be used in a full chain.

That's just me, though.

Quote:

maybe do same thing for all skills that require after <x> attack. reduce damage/conditions/health gain/energy gain/kd time by 50% but don't make them disabled. impale, signet of deadly corruption, entangling asp, blinding powder, mantis touch, etc.

so basically, keep the L O D idea but only as extra damage reward with no hard penalties for failing to follow that order.

I don't think Dual Attacks should do that, as Duals are mainly the hard-hitting attacks - methinks they should be the more inflexible but powerful ones - but yes for Offhands. But Lead attacks hardly need that because it's...Lead.

Which then isn't any different from the current suggested model...

Quote:

hmm and i guess you'd have to lower dps slightly to compensate for the increased versality

but either somehow give us more armor, or buff shadow steps, make us more mobile so we can escape a beating easier since we will be in melee longer, and make our attack skills recharge times shorter.

edit: we should still have slightly higher dps than warriors imo, even if they did lower it.

Let me clarify. DPS is damage per second, which is a common unit for use when calculating theoretical pressure; I do not think Assassins should have any continuous damage pressure. Rather I think they should have weaker, but quicker recharging and break-uppable spikes.

I think they shouldn't increase base armor, but defensive buffs could use a buff, I guess. Although...Assassins are already really really hard to kill, so having them now continuously on the mid-frontline wouldn't really make them suddenly die more than say, a caster.

Quote:

oh and please don't think im a firm supporter of any of this, this is all just spur of the moment ideas.

Noted.

I have to do stuff, so this was done haphazardly and between breaks.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

To take the assassin from instagib we need to look at overall recharges.
No dagger attack should have a 20 second recharge if we are to move from instagib (temple strike). In my opinion the highest dagger recharge should be 15 on an assassin, and reserved for the really nasty stuff.

IMO the sin should do short bursts, and the strongest resulting in a spike, that only kills targets that were damaged before.
Unsuspecting strike-Wild Strike (something should be stronger than this) Twisting fangs.
Should take them to like 30% hp and bleeding.

Golden fox strike, Wild Strike, Death blossom , should take the foe to about 65%, but recharges quickly and so they can do it again, as a form of pressure.
Recharges of GFS, Fox fangs (not wild) would be moderated to about 3 seconds I suppose.
The Fox line currently is pretty bad.
Fox fangs is a useless off-hand and Nine tails strike is weak (it should do same damage as DB but in exchange for AOE unblockable)
that means every 3 seconds, the foe looses about 35% hp I suppose from that combo.
They wouldn't instagib but they'd be valid pressure.

And um Lightning hell I don't get whats wrong with the idea of mine.
Assassin's can take apart their combo, but they're weakened for skipping the lead attack.
Im still toying with Moriz's idea of things Only counting as an off-hand etc.

Also all off-hands should be like jungle strike with 1/4 cast. I guess >.>

jaeharys targaryen · Nov 24, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Swapping mid-spike isn't optimal, methinks, because you're wasting a little bit of time. Granted it's not a lot, but if you're trying to spike every little bit counts, mm?

tap the movement key when you swap for no delay. perhaps enso doesnt know that either, but thats how you do it with no delay

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

made thread for assassin utility only really.
This thread IMO can deal with dagger attacks/recharges/clauses.

Actually I did not know about the movement key, thank you for that.

craigrs84 · Nov 24, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

jungle strike
10e .5c 10r
All your other off-hand attacks are disabled for 10 seconds. Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...22 damage. If it hits a foe that was Crippled, it does +1...25 damage. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a moving foe with no allies nearby, it does no damage, and target foe is crippled for 5...12 seconds

The idea of making offhands more flexible so they can be used out of chain is good. The idea of making them disable all other offhands for X seconds is bad. You say you do this to discourage a sin from running double offhands.

Example: L-O-D Bar
Golden Lotus Strike, Jungle Strike, Twisting Fangs

Your foe is fleeing from you and you decide to punish him with a cripple from jungle strike. you land the attack and cripple him for 8 seconds. All offhands are disabled for 10 seconds... You patiently wait for your offhand so you can attack him with your full chain... Foe realizes you are unable to do further damage for 10 seconds and takes the opportunity to heal himself, mend cripple, etc.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

The more I think of it the more Disabling sounds BAD.
If it was recharging perhaps, but disabling is bad sauce. WE could change damage and such
EG, I took a couple dagger skills and changed them

[card]Leaping Mantis Sting[/card] Energy 5, recharge 6 (from 8)
Lead Attack. If Mantis Sting hits, target foe takes +17...22...23 damage. If this attack strikes a moving foe, that foe is Crippled for 2...11...13 seconds.
If this strikes a crippled foe you do an additional +5....12 damage.

You get a cripple if you attack a moving foe, you gain more damage for attacking a crippled foe (meaning if you do LpS-wild-DB and go through the chain again its even stronger)

[card]Jungle Strike[/card] recharge changed to 8.
Off-hand attack, If it hits, this does (same damage) if it hits a crippled foe it does (same damage)
If this attack follows a lead attack it recharges instantly.

This lets the use of the skill twice.
Leaping mantis sting- Jungle Strike, Jungle is recharged, Jungle used again- Dual attack. If they're a dying crippled foe, they can just skip to jungle strike, but it won't recharge instantly.

[card]Nine Tail Strike[/card] recharge becomes 5.
If it hits you do +3....20 damage, this attack cannot be blocked.
If this follows an off-hand attack you do an additional +5...28 damage.
The damage has been nerfed, but if you make it follow an off-hand attack its even stronger than in its current state! (by about 8 damage =P)
If this does not follow an off-hand attack, all your duals are disabled for 8 seconds.

Also
Shattering Assault should be reverted to its power house form, with conditional damage. but to leave it as is

[card]Shattering assault[/card] 10 energy
Dual attack. If it hits you deal 10...20 damage and remove an enchantment.
If this attack follows a off-hand you do +10..20 damage (stronger than it is now) and cannot be blocked.
If this does not follow a off-hand attack, all your other dual attacks are disabled for 6 seconds.

Repeating strike.recharge 7
Strike for +12...30...36 Damage.
If this follows an off-hand attack this skill recharges instantly.
If repeating strike fails to hit, it takes an additional 15 seconds to recharge.
If this attack does not follow an off-hand attack, all your other off-hand attacks are disabled for 8 seconds.

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

removed the "disable all other" condition, as it seems it probably won't work as intended and neuters the sin too much.

yum · Nov 24, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Linking every single shadow stepping into critical strikes.

Make the recharge of all shadow stepping skill +10 seconds.

Critical strikes : each point of criticical strike reduces the recharge of shadow stepping skills by 1% from 1=>6; 3% from 7=>12%; 6% from 13 => whatever.

Turtle222 · Nov 24, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Linking every single shadow stepping into critical strikes.

Make the recharge of all shadow stepping skill +10 seconds.

Critical strikes : each point of criticical strike reduces the recharge of shadow stepping skills by 1% from 1=>6; 3% from 7=>12%; 6% from 13 => whatever.

no, i disagree, that would screw up a lot of builds. besides, if that happened too many problems come with it

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Its not about disabling them because used
Its about disabling them for not using =P

if they use a lead attack, Great no penalties.

Skip on the lead, and well now your getting disables on your attacks.

BlackSephir · Nov 24, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Scalling plox- now we have something like this
Lead attack- crap
Off-hand- meh
Dual-attack- awesome
Srsly, compare Jagged Strike to any Dual Attack, that's why people don't use leads and try to skip Off-hands
We need smth like this
Lead attack - ok
Off-hand- good
Dual-attack- nice
Short LOD chains with quick recharge is where it's at.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Jagged strike doesnt even do damage >.> how the hell are you comparing it to a dual attack.

The closests lead attacks in terms of damage to a dual are.
Unsuspecting Strike (1 time use =p)
and desperate strike (Piss ass condition)

zwei2stein · Nov 24, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

What hes saying is exactly that: leads are not good at all. thus, whever possible people skip then and go straight for offhands/duals whenever possible.

craigrs84 · Nov 25, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Scalling plox- now we have something like this
Lead attack- crap
Off-hand- meh
Dual-attack- awesome
Srsly, compare Jagged Strike to any Dual Attack, that's why people don't use leads and try to skip Off-hands
We need smth like this
Lead attack - ok
Off-hand- good
Dual-attack- nice
Short LOD chains with quick recharge is where it's at.

i think this is definately the best place to start. theres is just absolutely no reason to use a lead attack right now. leads are terrible and so are the normal offhands.

Willow O Whisper · Nov 25, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Scalling plox- now we have something like this
Lead attack- crap
Off-hand- meh
Dual-attack- awesome
Srsly, compare Jagged Strike to any Dual Attack, that's why people don't use leads and try to skip Off-hands
We need smth like this
Lead attack - ok
Off-hand- good
Dual-attack- nice
Short LOD chains with quick recharge is where it's at.

/signed ^^ (12 chars)

MercenaryK · Nov 25, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Scalling plox- now we have something like this
Lead attack- crap
Off-hand- meh
Dual-attack- awesome
Srsly, compare Jagged Strike to any Dual Attack, that's why people don't use leads and try to skip Off-hands
We need smth like this
Lead attack - ok
Off-hand- good
Dual-attack- nice
Short LOD chains with quick recharge is where it's at.

/signed x 100

Decrease the gap between leads, off-hands, dual-attacks in terms of damage, but not so much that they're all identical.

I haven't cared for the other ideas, they just made things too complicated. Not that I didn't understand, but they were way out there, it felt unnecessary.

yum · Nov 25, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

no, i disagree, that would screw up a lot of builds. besides, if that happened too many problems come with it

You mean those 123456 builds?

martialis · Nov 25, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Shadow Form - Elite skill. For 40 seconds you have +100 health and are immune to hexes. This skill is disabled for 60 seconds.